🇷🇺 LGBT Life in Russia - Bella Rapoport

Michael Ross: 00:00:02

Let's talk for and about the lgbt communities around the world. I'm Michael Ross, and this is straight friendly. So this time we're gonna talk about straight friendly stuff happening in Russia.

In terms of population, Russia is among the ten biggest countries in the world. Just 2nd, 9th after Bangladesh and just before Mexico. With over 146 million citizens.

It means that in Russia, there are roughly probably more than 10 million lgbt persons. 1.9% of the population of the world lives in Russia.

Russia is actually part of the asian continent, although to me, it seems to be so big that it looks like a whole continent by itself. Its biggest cities are Moscow and St. Petersburg.

So in our journey of learning and discovering lgbt communities around the world, we are gonna interview a local activist.

Before we continue to our guests for this episode, I would like to note that the production of this episode came to reality thanks to the support of the Friedrich Naumann foundation in Jerusalem, and also thanks to our volunteers, Alon Rosenbloom, Ariel Skop, and Anna Talisman. She has an Emma in cultural studies. She's a feminist, she's an activist and gender theorist. Hello. Berna Upperfold.

Bella: 00:02:01

Hi. That's me.

Michael Ross: 00:02:03

So, Bella, for the people who don't know that much about the lgbt community in Russia, I guess that many people once were imagining the queer community in different countries around the world. Maybe Russia is not the first place where they can imagine a huge community.

But we cannot ignore the fact that Russia is such a huge country with more than 150 million inhabitants. Right. So how does it go over with the russian lgbt community? By percentage, it should be few millions, if not dozens of millions.

Bella: 00:02:39

Yeah. And that's why it's. I think it's difficult to.

To describe it and even to call it the community, because we have a lot of cities and small towns, and all of them are culturally separated from each other. And I don't know anything about. I don't know what's going on in Krasnoyarsk or Vladivostok. No idea. I just know about St.

Petersburg or Moscow and the people in Moscow. They know only about what's going on in Moscow.

And everybody in Russia, I guess, knows what's going on in Moscow, and nobody knows what's going on in the small regions. So it's from. I cannot say for the whole country because of that. I can say just for. For my city and Moscow.

And also, as a sociologist, maybe, but I don't like the strong community because it's me.

It means that there is strong homogenic party or something, and all of the people, they are together, and they are the same, and they share the same interests. What I can see is lots of much smaller subcultures. Like, for example, I know, lesbian subculture or gay subculture.

And sometimes they join each other. I know, in some actions, and sometimes they don't. And also, there is the. The activist movement, and not all of the LGBTI people are in this movement.

And so maybe if I wasn't a sociologist, I could say such things as, we have huge community and everybody's the same. But I've been taught in the university that I just can't.

Michael Ross: 00:05:05

I personally agree with that. And also, in my podcast, I usually say those in Hebrew, at least.

But even in Israel itself, it feels like it's not one community, but it's separated to many, many communities. And maybe the term LGBT is more a coalition of different definitions, and I think that you're just proving it.

But in a big country, huge country like Russia, so it's many different communities, both geographically, but also in terms of identities and gender identities. But, Bela, can you. Can you tell us a bit what it's like? And has it always been like that in Russia?

Because when I read the news about the situation of the different, let's say, the different LGBT minorities groups, communities in Russia.

So usually, it's very bad news, at least those that goes to the war, that Putin's government makes it very difficult, but it can be very dangerous for the people. So my question would be, does it really what it looks like from Venus? And has it always been like that?

And then I will ask you if it's dangerous for you and what your life looks like, but generally, is it true? And is it so scary as it looks like? Has it always been like that?

Bella: 00:06:26

This problem has many layers, and that's, again, it's difficult to describe it in.

I know one sentence, because I cannot say that we are doing great here in Russia with all these laws and the police and homophobia, but also audience like, this discourse that usually people from the west are trying to build around us as if we are these weak people that are suffering every day and have no agency.

And this, you know, this big russian other, of course, because all the time I'm speaking to the people, either from Western Europe or America, they are speaking to me. I know who as if I have Putin on my forehead.

Michael Ross: 00:07:33

It happens to me sometimes even. And I was not born in Russia.

Bella: 00:07:37

So, yes, it depends on the location, of course, because I live in St. Petersburg, and it's much more safer place than, for example, Chechnya.

Because I cannot deny that gay men in Chechnya are being killed, and gay women in Chechnya are even not visible enough to know what's going on with them. But we also know that they are also being killed. And if gay men can leave the country somehow, and women, they just don't have this freedom to move.

Michael Ross: 00:08:25

But yet there is a culture, like a lesbian culture, a gay culture, for instance, in your city, in St. Petersburg, right?

Bella: 00:08:36

Yes, of course. Because Moscow and St. Petersburg, this place, are much more safer places. But also, sometimes it's not like everything is perfect here.

Sometimes people.

Michael Ross: 00:08:58

Can be in a physical risk by the authorities or by the citizens. By whom?

Bella: 00:09:05

Yes, both. And by the authorities and by citizens. And it's quite. It might be dangerous.

Michael Ross: 00:09:13

So maybe you cannot make a huge parade in the streets. But if you can, can you make a parade in the streets or a huge party outside?

Bella: 00:09:27

Oh, I don't think so. But.

Michael Ross: 00:09:30

So it's more underground. There is a scene, but it's not outside. It's like more close clubs or bars.

Bella: 00:09:38

But we have. Yes, we can have this small and close parties, and they're not even so, you know, we are not. It's not like hiding.

We will tell you the password, and only after that you can come in. Now it's quite openly. We can have this. I know, lesbian techno parties. And in the big cities, we are really privileged here. And that's why I'm almost.

I almost don't feel real, the real danger.

And also because I live in the center of the city and I feel more, you know, more vulnerable because I'm a woman, because I'm afraid of all these aggressive men on the streets. And it also depends on gender, because I don't want to say that lesbians are no more like likable in Russia or something like that.

But of course, it's much more. It's much safer to take. To go on the street, to walk on the street with my partner and to take her hand.

And if we were the guys, it would be much more dangerous because lesbians. It's not because the people love lesbians more, because the women. The women are mostly not visible at all because of that.

The people just don't believe in lesbians.

Michael Ross: 00:11:32

But can you feel safe or can you walk hand by hand with your partner in the streets?

Bella: 00:11:41

I can, yes. But it also depends on the location, because I live in the center. I can go to Nevsky prospect, it's our main street in the city.

Michael Ross: 00:11:54

But it's not because the russian society accepts lesbians, but it's probably because you think that they less care about women or how you find that.

Bella: 00:12:11

Yeah, because they mostly don't believe in lesbians, I guess, because. No, we.

Michael Ross: 00:12:18

Do you think they recognize that you are lesbian couple or it's just because you are a woman?

Do you feel like if people in the street, for instance, okay, if they see you walk hand by hand with your partner, and do you think, like, they realize that you're a lesbian couple and they just don't care? Or it's because you're women? What, what do you think is like, more impacting here?

Let's say your lesbian identity or visuality or the fact, or it's only that you are a woman?

Bella: 00:12:54

I don't know. I think it's both because homophobe against gay men. It has its roots also in misogyny because this man, they are not manly enough, you know?

And that's why they. Cause they don't. Cause that's why they have this reaction on them. And because it's okay to, you know, to teach men how to be men.

It's more dangerous for them to, you know, to show their gayness. I cannot say that it's not dangerous for women at all, because there were some cases where when women also were beaten, but it's much more rare.

And I know also, for example, since I got my haircut, I just lost from the men's radars and they just notice me as a woman at all, which is, I can say is a big relief. And maybe that's why also because they don't consider me as a woman and don't notice me.

And since I don't say anything on the street, they just don't care. But I know that if I start to say something, they will. They will carry. I also can.

Michael Ross: 00:14:36

Yeah, perfect.

And I wonder now if to ask you about the history, okay, if it always, like the rights or maybe the laws, I guess that the laws of the country are now, I guess, against also lesbian persons. Or it's also the laws. What they care of is the men are the men.

Bella: 00:15:10

It's about relationships. It's not about. This law is not specific, as a lot of russian laws are. It's not really specific.

That's why you can consider as propaganda almost everything. Yeah. During the soviet period, they had this law against the male homosexuality and women. They went to asylums and men went to prison.

But now this law is against, how to say it? The propaganda of untraditional relationship to children. This law is protective for. It's protecting children. This law is about children.

So under 18, you cannot reach any information about homosexuality or transdez genderism or anything like that. Because it's not normal relationships or gender identities.

And if you are doing some event or spread the information, you have to put the sign on this, on the banner or on the book that it's only for the people who are 18. But it works. Of course it doesn't work like that. Of course this law is also fucked up, but it doesn't work like that at all.

Because it works only for. Because no one cares about children or whatever. They just don't want anything.

They just don't want to do anything with any information about homosexuality or transgenderism or whatever. Yeah, but. But it wasn't like that always. This law is about six years. Six. Yeah, six years old. It wasn't like that before.

We didn't even have the term propaganda. It's pretty new.

Michael Ross: 00:17:53

Okay, so tell me, Bella, what it's like. Let's say if I'm a tourist arriving to St. Petersburg, rather as a gay person or a lesbian person or any other identity, where can we go?

What can we see in general in terms of the community? Like a very. Like historical monuments or museums or galleries or clubs? Places where we can go. Or it's mostly underground. And what it's like.

How can we fill the community once. Once arriving?

Bella: 00:18:32

You can. Of course, you can go to some organizations that support LGBT and they have a lot of events and they have the community. Also, you can go to the bar.

We have several bars where people, LGBTI people, are welcomed. I have my favorite. I cannot call it lesbian bar, but it's mostly lesbian bar.

And it looks like when you go there, it looks like you are in Berlin or something also, you can go to the club, but I don't go there because I hate the music.

Michael Ross: 00:19:12

Well, that's. Because. That's why you are a dj, maybe.

Bella: 00:19:15

Club or lesbian club music sucks so hard. I hate it. I don't go there.

Michael Ross: 00:19:20

What kind of music do they play?

Bella: 00:19:24

Oh, it's russian pop music with all awfully remixed. Awfully. I don't know. I don't know. Why is it so. I.

I've been asking it, like, many times, and I was told that my people are not going there to listen to music.

Michael Ross: 00:19:50

So. So let's fuck the music, basically, huh? So let's fuck the music, basically. No.

Bella: 00:19:58

Yeah, but you can be introduced. But you can be introduced.

Michael Ross: 00:20:05

Do you have Beyonce played there? Or Lady Gaga or Rupaul or any.

Bella: 00:20:11

Hopefully remixed. Hopefully remixed in these places. I think you can hear them, but remixes are really awful.

But you can be introduced to the part of the community there. Yes. And also they have some parties that are not regular, like Popov's kitchen in Moscow.

It's mostly male, but it positions itself as queer party, but it's mostly male. But I. Very popular and very huge. And they have good music and also some lesbian parties in Moscow.

And here, which I was participating yesterday, lesbian Tekhna party, where I'm playing it twice a month, they are doing it. So, yeah, we have some life here.

Michael Ross: 00:21:14

So it's definitely if you're arriving to. So it's definitely if you're arriving to Russia and you want to feel and see from the community. Communities or the cultures.

So you can definitely find things in St. Petersburg and in Moscow.

Bella: 00:21:32

Yeah, you need to find somebody who will provide you information and I. Yeah, and you, of course, you can find.

Michael Ross: 00:21:50

So, Bella, before we will finish, I would like to ask you a few more questions. And the first one would be about your research.

And from what I understand, you made a research about the gender under and the language of self representation in same sex female couples.

Bella: 00:22:10

Right.

Michael Ross: 00:22:10

Tell us a bit, please, about your research.

Bella: 00:22:13

Oh, I adore my research. I dedicated to it so much. I had so much troubles with that because I started to write it on the anthropology department in european university in St.

Petersburg, and they wouldn't let me, and they just wouldn't let me write my dissertation there. They didn't approve my topic. That's why I had to switch several places and start from the scratch in sociology.

But now I'm actually pretty happy that it happened like that, because, yeah, it took. It just took all my blood for me, this process of fighting with my faculty and switching the universities and stuff like that.

But now I see that my faculty, they just couldn't handle this subject because they were so obsolete and they just couldn't help handle the gender topic. And my research couldn't happen there.

I've been asking lesbian couples, because I'm pretty much interested how lesbian gender constructs and how it is expressed in the language, because we don't have a lot of lesbian things in the mass culture of Russia. So lesbians, they have to invent their own language in some contexts, or to use some euphemisms or something like that.

And they derive, you know, the gender stereotypes from heterosexist culture, and they transform it to something new, or maybe not that new in their relationship. And it fascinates me and I still. Because it's a master degree, so I still didn't go to the core, but I just touched the surface.

But it still was so interesting. Yeah. And because I'm, you know, I feel related to this topic a lot because I've been. I've started to.

To be interested in that because during the conversations with my own girlfriends. Yes. And what you said, what do you want to hear about my research? Because I can talk about it for hours, I think. Maybe not for.

Not for hours because of English, but.

Michael Ross: 00:25:31

Still, maybe if you can tell us, let's say, like, in one or in. In few sentences, maybe if you can tell us in few sentences. What did you find in your research? What is your conclusion?

Bella: 00:25:48

One of my. One of my main discoveries. It's not like discovery.

Discovery because I knew it before, because I used to be heterosexual as well, that there is no such thing as, you know, this border between heterosexuality and homosexuality.

And we don't know what heterosexuality actually is because a lot of people that don't consider themselves gay or something, they still practice same sex, same sexual relationships or same sex sexual desire because all of my informants, they had sex with heterosexual women, or they used to be heterosexual women themselves, and then they. You cannot say, it's like, decision how to. Which sort of ice cream to choose.

It's not like that, but it's still a kind of decision when you choose to live a lesbian life, when you choose to live a life and with a woman, you know, and so the people in normativity always asks what homosexuality is. But I think that we should ask what heterosexuality is because we don't know anything about it.

And actually, I'm not really interested to research heterosexuality, but still, I just want to challenge it because it's not like something solid and this norm, that heterosexual people are a solid norm, and they are born this way, and they are. Did I explain it? Well, yeah. It's been really enlightening for me that this border, it's.

Michael Ross: 00:27:49

But it's very. These borders, how do you see them? You see them in the language or how do you see it?

Bella: 00:27:57

The language, too? Yes, because as a social constructivist, I believe that if we don't have something in language, we just cannot adopt it in.

Michael Ross: 00:28:14

So it's like, differences in the terms in the russian language itself.

Bella: 00:28:22

No, it's not russian language language. I mean, it's not.

What I meant here is, like, russian language language here is something that language here is the instrument that we use to see our reality and to build it. And to. And I know. And russian language might be different in different communities and different subcultures. And, for example, lesbian subculture.

They use a lot of euphemisms. They don't use the term lesbian, for example. They don't like it because it's pejorative. Right. But these.

A lot of them are still open, and they don't like the word lesbian, but they don't hide anything from their colleagues, for example. Not all of them. Some of my employment. It's really. We need an hour. So it's not russian language. It's.

Michael Ross: 00:29:33

So it's more like.

Not the russian language itself, but it's more about the language that we use on our daily life and the way it's basically construct our reality and the way we preserve the lgbt community. Yes. And from. My last question would be from. From what I heard, I actually heard it from. From Anna.

I've been told that you've been also very active within the language which is being used and the terms which are being used within the russian journalism and the attitude they have towards women in terms of what kind of words or definitions we use. And I see also vervet in some ways, also construct the way people behave in the way they see the reality.

Can you please tell us a bit about your activism also, where your feminist activism.

Bella: 00:30:28

Yes. I used to be a journalist, actually, sometimes. Now I'm acting as a journalist as well, but really rare because I'm tired and I'm evolving. And my.

Michael Ross: 00:30:43

Well, you're now being interviewed in this podcast, so it's already kind of doing journalism. So you're doing journalism now.

Bella: 00:30:50

Okay. But now you are the journalist, not I am. Okay. So I used to be a journalist, and I used to be write the articles about feminism and women's rights.

And it was about, like,: 8765

Michael Ross: 00:31:16

So basically big powers and lots of journalism and people. So they had a lot of fire against you, and they had a criticism against you and some quite small group of feminist activists. Right.

Bella: 00:31:32

Yeah. Because now the people in Russia are discussing things like domestic violence or something.

But again, talking about language, this thing, they didn't exist in our language, like, seven years ago. Nobody was talking about it. And I was one of the few people who drew it on the surface. And that's why. Yes.

All this hatred that the feminism and the feminist agenda can cause, I took a lot of it. That's why I'm not doing journalism now. At the moment. And also because I'm a lesbian, I'm jewish, I have curly hair.

The people still use curly as a pejorative hair now. Really? Yes.

Michael Ross: 00:32:36

I had no idea. I love curly hair. My ex boyfriend had a curly hair.

Bella: 00:32:41

In Israel, everybody is curly, but here not. And they say this stupid curly chick. Yes. And it's not even the most awful things I've heard about me. Yeah. And. But it also made me pretty famous.

Right. And I like being famous. I like attention. I don't hide it.

Michael Ross: 00:33:11

What are these words? Were there specific words that. That were difficult for you?

Bella: 00:33:20

Yeah. So there was this case, it was five years ago, which made me really famous because we have, you know, this separation.

We have government media and the opposition media, which claims to be really for pro human rights and something. But they are really sexy. They used to be really sexy. And actually they still are, but they improved thanks to me. Yes.

And I've written an article about one of these. One of them, because. Oh, it's a long story. One of them, they were trying to make an article how not to be a sextest sexist in Russia.

So they invited me to be an expert, an expert in this article. And I didn't like their questions because they were about who pays for the dinner and something.

And I told them that we have huge problem with domestic violence and stuff like that. And they still did this article, not in the best way. And they also put it in social media with.

With the caption, hey, guys, here is the instruction, how not to offend, how not to insult chicks.

And I've been asked by another media to write the article about it, and not only about this media, but about the other ones that also use hate speech and sexist language. So I did. And it caused. It caused such a huge shit storm. I just. I woke up in the morning and I already could see.

I already could see that somewhere in the Internet, on Facebook, wherever people are discussing how stupid I am. And there is no such a problem with the women. We have this war in Ukraine, blah, blah, blah.

We do have war in Ukraine, and it's a really serious problem, but it's not the point to not discuss the women's rights. So they were discussing it for several months. They called me stupid guns. Every famous person, they had an opinion about it, and they felt urgent to.

To say it. After that, I had to go to shrink because I was totally burnt out.

But these episodes caused changes, and now they mostly don't use language like that. And they are asking women some things and inviting them to be experts, and they don't call women chicks or whatever.

Michael Ross: 00:36:38

So it is thanks to you that nowadays the media are not using or using less these kind of terms, which can be very, you know, lowering in some way the position of women in the russian society, which is such a huge, big, enormous, huge, big society. So you had a real huge impact. You made a big change.

Bella: 00:37:07

Yes. Yes.

Michael Ross: 00:37:10

That's me and you. And you hear in my. In my podcast. Thank you. That's a huge pleasure.

I think that from, you know, I'm interviewing and I'm talking with people and activists from many places and from many different countries, and I think that this is one of the most interesting and one of the best examples I had personally of a way of where are the fight of where the feminist fight and the lgbt fight, where they come together.

You know, I think that this is a really interesting, also example of an lgbt activist that through your activism, you passed the way also to many other women who are not necessarily related to the lgbt community. And it's really, really, really interesting.

I've heard about this kind of things in when I learned about a bit about feminist theories in the United States.

And it's really interesting to get and know more examples from other places in the world, and especially a place like Russia, where you have so many people living there.

So it was really, really interesting for me, Bella, and I want to thank you very much for being interviewed and for sharing with us all that amazing job that you did and that you are doing.

And I want to thank you for what you do, because it impacts also many more people and also probably me, when I will come to visit once again in Russia.

Bella: 00:39:10

Thank you for having me.

I've been also really happy to be here and to give you an interview in such a friendly atmosphere and to hear some Hebrew, because I haven't heard it for a while.

Michael Ross: 00:39:31

Just a bit of Hebrew or hearing me speaking in Russian with my israeli accent. And I want also to thank, Joanna, thank you very much for.

For being here and introducing between Bella and myself and helping me also with the questions and with the translations. We did some editing here, so the listeners had no idea how many. How much Ana also assisted us and what a huge part she had in this episode.

It's worse of thank you, Ana, as well. And also thanks to our volunteers, Alon Rosenblum, Ariel Skop, and Anna Talisman.

The production of this episode came to reality thanks to the support of the Friedrich Naumann foundation in Jerusalem.

This was another episode of straight, friendly global you can find more episodes and listen to our podcast on your favorite listening app, such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Echo Podcasts, Alexa Media player, Google Podcasts, and so on.